Read and Learn -- PCUSA and Wikipedia?

Google "Presbyterian general assembly" and you will find a link to pcusa.org, a link to a financial blog (which makes a really sad sort of ironic sense) and third a link to the Wikipedia entry for Presbyterian Church (USA).

Seriously there is a lengthy Wikipedia entry (well OF COURSE there is, I shouldn't be surprised, but I am), here is the link: Presbyterian Church (USA). Was the Rev. John Witherspoon really the only Minister to sign the Declaration of Independence? What about Lyman Hall? Ok, so he was first a Doctor, but wasn't he also a Minister? (Ok, ok, so he was actually fired from one church for moral failings; but we won't talk about that.)

There are a number of other statements made that I think will raise the hackles of a few members of this ring. So, anybody want to take a stab at an editing job?

JusticeSeeker
JusticeSeekerOK@aol.com

Read and Learn -- Holy Week is Over

Holy Week is over. Sleep has happened. Staff meetings have happened. So, how'd it go?

This year my church added a sunrise service. I don't recall ever having had one before. A friend of mine looked at the location, the time, the circumstances and dressed appropriately -- blue jeans and a sweat shirt. She felt a tad bit conspicuous. The rest of the attendees were dressed like proper Presbyterians on EASTER for crying out loud. When she has told this to friends and family, the response has invariably been, "What WERE you thinking? It was (insert name of traditional Presbyterian church) on EASTER!"

Matters of dress aside, she loved the service, and it was very well attended. Over all, attendance was up over last year pretty substantially. Of course, the weather was better than last year too. We also made significant changes to the Maundy Thursday and Good Friday services -- all of which seemed to work, and none of which seemed radically different -- even though some of it was.

So, how was your Holy Week? Did you try anything new?

JusticeSeeker
JusticeSeekerOK@aol.com

Read and Learn -- Requests for Opinions

A friend of mine suggested I read this book, Christianity by Diarmaid MacCulloch. I'm a pretty voracious reader, but I must admit to pausing to consider before jumping into 1184 pages -- especially with a Kindle price in excess of $20.

So, anyone read it? Thoughts? Comments?

JusticeSeeker
JusticeSeekerOK@aol.com

Read and Learn: Generation to Generation

One of the classes I am taking this semester is called "The Self in the System." It is a pastoral care class that focuses in on various schools of though regarding pastoral counseling. It has been a very interesting, challenging, and thought provoking class. Part of our grade involves five counseling sessions with a fellow student to practice some of the concepts and ideas we are learning. That's five sessions as a counselor and five sessions as a counselee. One of the books we have read for this class is called Generation to Generation: Family Process in Church and Synagogue by Edwin Friedman. Though I am still in seminary and don't have "real world" experience to back this statement up, I will go on a limb to say that this book is a must read for anyone in pastoral ministry. If you are an ordained minister, some of the ideas in this book could definitely be put to use in pastoral counseling scenarios and congregational dynamics of your church. From the dust flap, "Friedman compares the emotional processes at work within individual families to those in church and synagogue, suggesting that clergy can often do more to help families by the way they lead their congregations than they can through specific counseling interventions." If you are a lay leader, I can definitely see how it would be beneficial to see some of Friedman's ideas pan out in the lives of those on your committees, ministry teams, and small groups. And whether or not you fit into either of those two categories or not doesn't really matter. The personal perspective that can be gained from this book is phenomenal. In a culture where we mostly focus on the individual person, taking a step back and realizing the effects the systems/families we are a part of have on us is tremendously helpful. Friedman is a fairly blunt and straightforward individual, which won't jive with everyone's personal style to be sure, but there is undoubtedly fresh insight that can be garnered from this book.

Read and Learn -- Passover and Holy Week

Earlier this week Quotidian Grace posted about the experiences of some Churches, including her own, celebrating a Passover Seder in connection with Holy Week. (I know, what every church needs, one more thing to do during Holy Week.) Then, I read an article in USAToday.com about President Obama celebrating a Seder at the White House. I thought it all sounded kind of cool. I've never been to a Seder.

I was not surprised when I typed Christian Seder into Google to discover that there are some Christians who think this is a bad idea. I was somewhat surprised to discover that many Jews aren't too happy about Christians co-opting their traditions (shouldn't that be our traditions?).

So, I thought I would start by asking who has been to a Seder and was it as a guest of a Jewish friend, was it part of a Christian observance, have your churches done Seders? Just curious.

Then, I thought I would put up a few links for those who really want something else to do during Holy Week.

A Guide to a Christian Seder, by Michael Ropeke (online article, good overview);

Introduction to a Christian Seder, Reclaiming Passover for Christians, Dennis Bratcher (online article with tons of good details); and

Not surprisingly, Wikipedia has an entry.

There is tons more stuff available, and none of it is hard to find. If you do decide to try a Seder (probably not this year, of course), do let us know how things go.

JusticeSeeker
JusticeSeekerOK@aol.com

Read and Learn: On Reading and Learning

Being that I am in seminary right now I have been thinking a lot about reading and learning. Our brains are amazing things. How do we retain information? How do we connect ideas? Though there are scientific answers for these questions, there is one aspect of reading and learning that is directly related to the world of faith: Sabbath. I use this term in a general way not in the "going to church on Sunday" kind of way that is transferred over from the Hebrew Scriptures. I use the term to mean a time for rest and even enjoyment.

To put it succinctly, Sabbath is good for the brain. There have been many times of late that I have forced myself to stay at the task of school work even though I am quite tired. And I must admit, sometimes that is necessary. But I have been pleasantly surprised what happens when I choose to give my brain a break. Translation exercises that I labored through one night were somehow easier after I allowed my brain to rest and do something I enjoyed followed by a good nights sleep. I have often joked that I think taking naps is my favorite spiritual discipline. While there is a sense in which this is a joke, I actually think it's quite true.

I admit some may find this post quite ridiculous, but it seems to me that our bodies, our brains, need Sabbath time. So whether it's a good nap, a nice walk, or a glass of wine by the fireplace or veranda, I hope you find some time to rest your mind today. Leave a comment if you do. Maybe others might like your ideas.

Read and Learn -- Faith in the Secular

Since I answered Miranda's call for help on this blogring more than four years ago, I have been reading a lot of overtly Christian books. Since I bought Kindle almost exactly 1 year ago, I have just been reading a lot -- of everything. I have always been a reader, but my reading had slowed down considerably -- until Kindle. Why is a question with a complicated answer, but it does not appear to be an unusual response to a Kindle.

Anyway, this significant increase in reading first overtly Christian books and then just lots of books made me notice something I wasn't expecting. I almost find the best arguments in support of religion and faith in the pages of books that don't mention either. A few months ago I finished a really good fantasy novel. It was set in a world where faith and religion were simply not players. There was no mention of either in the book. What struck me most strongly about the book, the characters and the worldview was how empty they were; how devoid of meaning.

So, I started paying attention. QG and I both read the same book last summer that was a biography of a woman connected to Pope Innocent X. One thing that really got both of our attention was the complete lack of interest, or recognition, on the part of the author of the extent to which the actions described in the book were antithetical to the teachings of the New Testament. That lack of a Christian perspective in a book that wasn't a Christian book but was closely tied to a religious institution had one effect on QG and me, but it would have a very different effect on someone who was not Christian.

Last weekend I finished a fantasy trilogy that included a religion of its own making. That brings with it its own interesting perspective. Science fiction and fantasy become more than just stories when they use their world building to jolt us out of our established opinions and perspectives to make us look with new eyes at what it means to be human. It is rare for genre books to use that strength to examine the role of faith and religion, but they can do it very well.

Finally, I am currently reading a book with a church group that makes frequent mention of teaching a college religious study course using multiple movies with religious subjects and looking at the different ways those movies tell their stories.

In an increasingly secular world, how do we find new ways to use the secular to help others see the divine?

JusticeSeeker
JusticeSeekerOK@aol.com

Read and Learn -- Life in Between

I don't remember what first caught my attention about the book, Heaven On Earth: Capturing Jonathan Edwards' Vision of Living In Between by Stephen J. Nichols; but I do remember the Amazon reviewer who said something to the effect of, if you want to know what Edwards had to say about Heaven -- read Edwards. I can't really argue with that. I can say that this author does a very nice job of making Edwards' views of Heaven, and living the journey towards Heaven, accessible and contemporary.

One example that caught my eye was the discussion of Edwards' opinions about justice. In our culture it is easy to think of seeking justice as something for the likes of Gary Haugen and his amazing colleagues at the International Justice Mission, and less so for lawyers like me with a nice comfortable, safe practice in a nice, comfortable American city. Even so, that is a calling for a handful of lawyers -- not for the rest of us. In this book the author used Edwards' own experiences with Native Americans to illustrate Edwards' concept of justice as a necessary part of a Christian worldview. The author takes the New Testament command to care for widows and orphans and translates that into giving a voice to the poor and the powerless. All of a sudden that doesn't sound like something you have to be a lawyer busting white slavers to do.

On a completely different level there is something very encouraging about this book. As it translates an Edwards' sermon series into more contemporary idiom, it becomes clear that Edwards did not spend his life preaching to a congregation overflowing with committed Saints. His congregation was very much like any other, filled with far too many who still don't quite get it.

JusticeSeeker
JusticeSeekerOK@aol.com

Read and Learn: Now on Wednesdays!

Happy Wednesday! The weekly posts for "Read and Learn" which used to be on Thursdays will now be on Wednesdays. In addition, along with Quotidian Grace and JusticeSeeker, there will be a third writer: and that's where I come in. My name is Sara Green and I blog over at The Pinkhammer Blog. I am a seminary student at Princeton Theological Seminary and have just started the Spring semester of my first year here. While I am not yet sure what God is calling me to do after seminary, I am (mostly) enjoying the process of trying to figure that out both here at seminary and as an Inquirer in the ordination process. And I say "mostly" because, well...God has a funny way of keeping things interesting along the way that can be rather frustrating. But I am sure I am not telling you anything you haven't already been through yourself. Though I am exploring campus/college ministry and teaching, I am also very excited about pastoral ministry.

My classes this semester are a New Testament Survey class, a history class that focuses on church and state dynamics from the medieval to reformation time periods, and a practical theology class that focuses on Carl Rogers understanding of pastoral care. Oh! And a worship class on the Psalms which I am taking for my own spiritual development though I can tell it will help immensely with planning and leading worship in the future. I am sure some of my posts will reflect things that come up along the way, but if anyone has a particular interest related to these items, please feel free to leave a comment here and I can blog about it either in the "Read and Learn" posts or over at my blog. I also enjoy peppermint mochas and love photography. : )

Read and Learn -- CT's Book Awards

Christianity Today has posted the 2010 Christianity Today Book Awards. The editors have chosen a winner and one or two Awards of Merit in the following categories: Apologetics/Evangelism, Biblical Studies, Christianity & Culture, The Church/Pastoral leadership, Christian Living, Fiction, History/Biography, Spirituality, Missions/Global Affairs and Theology/Ethics.

I have read exactly none of the winners.

Several look quite interesting, though, but I am more attracted to the Award of Merit winners (i.e., the runners up) than to the winners. For instance, ITold Me So: Self-Deception and the Christian Life by Gregg A. Ten Elshof, the winner in Christian Living, sounds really good for me; but I'm a lawyer. I'm already an expert at lying to myself. The Award of Merit went to Singled Out: Why Celibacy Must Be Reinvented in Today's Church by Christine A. Colon and Bonnie E. Field.

Although, I must admit that the winner in Biblical Studies sounds far more interesting than the runner-up. Sin, a History by Gary A. Anderson v. The First and Second Letters to the Thessalonians by Gordon D. Fee just really isn't much of a contest.

Still, all pretty tame, CT kinds of stuff -- well, not quite. Did you ever think you would see an Anne Rice book on the CT book awards? Me neither, but an Award of Merit for fiction went to Rice's Angel Time.

The Award of Merit for History/Biography is the only thing that has made my to-read list. I just couldn't resist, The Sisters of Sinai: How Two Lady Adventurers Discovered the Hidden Gospels by Janet Soskice. I may not get to it too soon, but I'll let you know when I do.

Read and Learn -- Blogging and Communication

I belong to a decent sized church. Like most we have a Sunday bulletin with announcements, a newsletter, a weekly email about the sermon; all of which I read faithfully. That puts me in a pretty small group from what I hear. So, on one hand I hear that many people in the Congregation don't read all of the Church news made available. On the other hand, I do read it all; and I still am frequently surprised about things that are going on. My guess is that isn't unusual. I have made the following suggestion to my church and would love comments or suggestions.

A blog, preferably a multi-column format so that different topics could be grouped into different feeds. This has to be lay run -- NO STAFF. I want the people doing things -- signing up families for Angel Food, singing in the choir, decorating for Christmas, working with a local homeless addict, serving on committees, teaching Sunday School, planning retreats and mission trips -- all the stuff going on in the church to post human interest kinds of things on one or another of the blog feeds. No ads, no staff, nothing formal just human interest stories, ideas being talked about in committees, problems with the new security system; just stuff. No full names, no personal info. The church newsletter can pick up a couple of the posts to include in each issue of the printed newsletter.

I see this as potentially solving three problems. First, assuming that I can get people from throughout the church to contribute and their friends all start reading, word should spread pretty rapidly about the things that are happening around us. Second, there is nothing more likely to encourage involvement than to see someone else who is just like you (and not clergy or other paid staff) involved. Third, it should provide great content for search engine spiders enhancing the Church's own Internet presence.

I realize that keeping the feeds fed will be difficult, and might be impossible. Trying to find the people to keep content flowing may be more than I can handle. Assuming, however, that the content end is manageable; what problems do you see and what do you think will come of it?

JusticeSeeker
JusticeSeekerOK@aol.com

Read and Learn -- New Year's Resolutions

I thought I would offer a few resources for New Year's resolutions. First, is probably the only spiritual disciplines book I have ever read that I think might actually connect with most of the typical, traditional Presbyterians I have known. Soul Feast: An Invitation to the Christian Spiritual Life, by Marjorie J. Thompson reads like it was written for Presbyterians.

God has not come alive for them through traditional religious institutions. I know a man who has dutifully attended worship and served as a church trustee for years. He is still mystified by the language of faith. Words about God seem mere words -- beautiful and hopeful, but unconnected tothe world he knows. This man would like to believe, but he does not experience the reality of God in his life.

This is a book written for intelligent, educated people who have good intentions, but have never really made faith a part of their real lives.

Second, Lifechurch.tv has updated its Bible reading app for Blackberry. (I would assume it is available for iphone, too -- but Grace will have to verify that.) This is an app that is designed to help you read the Bible. It has a selection of reading plans and some social networking components built in. It is a perennial top ten download on Blackberry's Appworld. It is called simply Bible. It is completely free. It integrates with your contacts and Twitter so you can send verses to other people. It inclues a variety of translations. It is a very nice contribution from lifechurch.tv.

So, happy New Year.

JusticeSeeker
JusticeSeekerOK@aol.com

Read and Learn -- Children's Curriculum and the Great Stories

Last week Jan Edmiston of A Church for Starving Artists posted about trying to find a curriculum for use with children that taught the great Bible stories. For most of Christian (and Jewish) history the Bible stories were extremely well known. Most people weren't literate. The stories were read in church, they were depicted in public art. They were memorable.

I grew up in Sunday School using a story based approach to the Bible. Some of my earliest church memories are of coloring pictures of the stories while the teacher read the story aloud to us. I grew up and read those stories in context. So, I know where they are in the Bible and how they fit into the story. A lot of the people I grew up with know the stories, but they don't know the context. To them the stories are isolated snippets that they can't visualize in a bigger picture. Then, we have a lot of people younger than I am who just never learned them at all.

So, what do we do about this? Read Jan's post and the comments there, any ideas?

JusticeSeeker
JusticeSeekerOK@aol.com

Read and Learn -- Lay Leadership

I read a lot of blogs. I'm an administrator for a blogring, it is kind of part of the territory. A lot of the blogs I read are written by ministers -- imagine that. One thing that I find interesting in a lot of blogs are the sometimes passing references to lay leadership. This is a topic that came to mind recently when I visited a church out of State and then blogged about it.

One of my comments about that church was that it had all the welcome the guest procedures down. What it didn't have was a congregation who would say hello or even make eye contact with someone who was obviously a visitor. The Sr. Pastor posted a comment saying that he had printed off my blog post and taken it to a staff meeting. For some things, like information missing from a website, that is important. What I wanted to know is why didn't he forward it to his Board of Deacons? Aren't those the people who should be your front line in terms of hospitality to visitors? You know what? They aren't at my Church either. So, why not?

Today, one of my Church's Pastors mentioned that he is starting a spiritual discipleship project aimed at the Elders and Deacons. Grace mentioned to me today that her Church just did new officer training emphasizing the equality between laity and clergy in our polity. Well, maybe in our polity . . .

One of my pet peeves is that the best way to really foster growth in mission work is to support the rank and file members who have a vision or are doing something on their own. Our membership are degreed professionals (primarily). We can accomplish great things by empowering our own members. I would like to see a Church's mission team acting as the equivalent of a small business incubator for mission projects.

What would you like to see from your lay leadership and how do we get there?

JusticeSeeker
JusticeSeekerOK@aol.com

Read and Learn -- What are you looking for?

Yesterday, a member blogger, Carol Howard Merritt at Tribal Church wrote about books that the religious publishing industry isn't publishing that she thinks they need to. Here is one paragraph from her post:

And so, I make my plea to my progressive publishing friends. Don’t dismiss those books that are for regular people. As pastors, we need to be able to hand a good book to intelligent parishioners who just might be starting out with this whole church thing. I also get requests for daily devotional books, marriage books, basic Bible books, finance books from a Christian perspectice—as progressives, we have things to say about ordinary life, and the people in the pews are really wanting to hear it.

So, I will rephrase her closing question. What books do you wish existed?

JusticeSeeker
JusticeSeekerOK@aol.com

Read and Learn -- Web Sites and Visitors -- Pt. 2

Last week I wrote about visiting a Presbyterian church in another city with nothing to go on but the website. In the comments several of you suggested that I should email the senior pastor with my observations. That had already occurred to me, I just hadn't done it yet -- hey, I was on vacation! Anyway, I sent him what I thought was a rather nice email giving him the link to the blog entry. That was Thursday of last week. No response, not a word, nada. I am assuming that he doesn't check the email address listed for him on his own church's website. Not good, folks.

When I got home from my trip last Saturday there was a letter waiting for me from the church I visited. It was mailed on Monday. The letter was very nice and clearly tailored for a visitor from out of town. It invited me to make them my home away from home. It was very well done, and it would have been very effective except for two things: 1. No one so much as made eye contact and smiled with me during coffee fellowship following the service; and 2. The senior pastor either doesn't check his email or doesn't respond to it.

What that very nice letter told me is that they do the automatable well. Produce the form letter, make somebody responsible for it; and it happens. The personal and spontaneous -- not so well.

Again, I am not trying to rag on this church. Mine is no better, and I doubt that most of our members' churches are either. I have forwarded my observations to my senior pastor, because I like learning from other people. So, here is the final lesson -- established, automated procedures are great. They can cement a good impression, but they can't make one. Any attempt to make your church more accessible has to include old fashioned smiles and interest on a personal level.

JusticeSeeker
Justiceseekerok@aol.com

Calvinism and CT's Front Page

I really do know that not all Presbyterians are Calvinists -- but I am. I also know that Calvinism is the currently trendy flavor of choice amongst many Evangelical seminaries. Still, I was somewhat tickled to see a string of Calvin related stories on the Christianity Today RSS feed today.

I block copied this from CT's front page:

John Calvin: Comeback Kid Why the 500-year-old Reformer retains an enthusiastic following today. Timothy George Also: The Reluctant Reformer Also: Calvin's Biggest Mistake Full Coverage: John Calvin

What Calvin Gets Right
Even those who vigorously disagree with the Reformer are still impressed.

Man of the Bible
Ben Witherington: When it comes to careful exegesis and consistent theological systems, Calvin set the bar high.

Theologian of the Spirit
Roger E. Olson: Calvin was no charismatic, but he was closer to it than some Reformed people readily admit.

A Common Hope
John Wilson: Much of 'Calvinism' is simply Christianity.

***FROM BOOKS & CULTURE
Do Not Despair; Do Not Presume
Mark Valeri reviews Peter J. Thuesen's Predestination: The American Career of a Contentious Doctrine.

So, yet another post in the ongoing celebration of John Calvin's birth.

JusticeSeeker
JusticeSeekerOK@aol.com

Read and Learn -- Favorite Commentaries

Last week I was reading the book of Amos -- long story, don't ask, really should wander through it more often. The first couple of chapters were filled with cultural references that I wasn't getting. I was on my way to at a meeting with two of my Church's ministers. So, I asked for a recommendation for a good Commentary. They stammered. Evidently, Amos isn't high on their frequently read list either.

I pulled out Kindle and ran a search through Amazon on the word, "Amos". After sorting through a few of the less scriptural results, I found a commentary by Lloyd John Ogilvie on Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah and Jonah in the Mastering the Old Testament series. It is quite good. I also found Calvin's commentary and a couple of others. I will work through the Calvin eventually, but the Ogilvie was really what I was looking for.

I don't doubt that if I had asked for a recommendation for a commentary on a Gospel or Genesis that I would have gotten a couple of instant titles. Amos, though, wasn't just on the tip of anyone's mind. So, I thought I would ask for suggestions on favorite commentaries covering the lesser read Old Testament books.

JusticeSeeker
JusticeSeekerOK@aol.com

Read and Learn -- Read and Reread

I was talking to someone at church today who has been rereading Dallas Willard's Divine Conspiracy. Yea, I know, great book. Anyway, he made the observation that he is seeing the book in a whole different way than the last time he read it.

That got me thinking. What are the books that need to be read more than once? (Ok, besides the Bible.) There are some books like the Chronicles of Narnia that are frequently read as children that really do need to be read again later in life. There are books like Richard Foster's Prayer: Finding the Heart's True Home that cover so many different kinds of prayer that you can't begin to internalize them all in one trip through the book. Then there are the books, like for Divine Conspiracy for my friend, that are so rich that what you bring to them makes them almost completely different.

So, what book, or books, have been a whole new experience for you?

JusticeSeeker
JusticeSeekerOK@aol.com

Read and Learn -- The Once and Future Church

I wrote a long post, tried to post it; and Blogger had eaten all of the post's text. It was blank. So, I will try to reconstruct it, sorry this is late.

I have read three books lately that are completely different, but each one has made me think about the other two. The three books are The Second Coming of the Church by George Barna, Jonathan Edwards: A Life, by George M. Marsden and Punk Munk: New Monasticism and the Ancient Art of Breathing by Andy Freeman and Pete Greig.

The Barna book is a discussion of what he thinks are the problems with the church in America and what he thinks we should do about it. The first part is pretty good. I generally think he has a pretty good grasp of what is going on -- and he should. His work is generally well researched, factual and well supported. It is the second part of the book that I have problems with. I don't mean to imply that there aren't some good ideas in this book. There are, and many of them could be useful in revitalizing existing congregations. To me, the problem with this book is that Barna seems to be trying to get back to the glory days of the 1950's and 1960's when church attendance was booming, pastors were politically and socially influential and churches were filled with all the right people.

I just don't know that the big building, big budget church model was ever all that successful. Of course, this assumes that church success is defined by the nurturing of dedicated committed Christians willing to lead lives of obedience and service. I tend to wonder if even 10% of the population of those churches had fit that description how different would this world be?

That question leads me to the Jonathan Edwards book. First of all, this book is well researched, well presented and should be read by anyone with an interest in the church of that time. Our concept of a church is really a direct descendant of the congregations of Edwards' day. I think it is a common idea that people in the first half of the 18th Century at least pretended to be pretty pious. Well, not exactly. In fact, Edwards spent a great deal of time concerned about the state of salvation in his Congregation. He was an influential leader during a period of significant spiritual renewal in New England, and he was very attentive to what did and did not make a difference in the spiritual lives of his congregation. Although, Edwards was a very effective pastor; I don't see that his effectiveness was connected to the church model. In fact, I am convinced that the big building, big budget model was no more effective then than it is now.

That leads me to the third book, Punk Monk. This is the least well written of the three books. It has a great topic with wonderful stories, but it lacks sparkle. It isn't that it is difficult to read, but it is a little too easy to put down. Punk Monk is the second book about the rise of the 24/7 prayer movement that started in England a few years ago. (The International website is www.24-7prayer.com , and the US website is www.24-7prayer.us .)

The 24-7 prayer contribution to the New Monasticism movement are places called boiler rooms. There are several in the U.S., England and quite a few in other parts of the world as well. This book is about the start of the boiler room idea. I am not saying that they have the answer to the future of the church. I am also not saying that this book is filled with ideas that will fit into an existing congregation. I am saying that it is a pretty different way of doing church that is worth reading.

So, what is the point of this blog post? If the goal of our education programs is to make committed Christians (including well informed, well educated ones), then how is what we teach and how we teach it influenced by our opinions of where the future of the church lies?

JusticeSeeker
JusticeSeekerOK@aol.com